WHAT MOTIVATES ME IS THE DESIRE TO KNOW MORE

APAJap – Associaçao Portuguesa de Acupuntura Japonesa e Shiatsu

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WHAT MOTIVATES ME IS THE DESIRE TO KNOW MORE:

KIIKO MATSUMOTO TALKS WITH HARA ABOUT CLASSICS, THE BODY, AND LIVE RESEARCH

By Ana Sofia Pacheco

In over forty years of practice, Kiiko Matsumoto has never stopped asking herself the same question: what don’t we know about the human body? In this interview, one of the world’s leading figures in Japanese acupuncture talks about her journey, the importance of ancient texts, and how the body holds the memory of loss, trauma, and profound experiences, revealing how healing often begins with attentive listening to what is not visible.

Kiiko Matsumoto is one of the most influential figures in contemporary Japanese acupuncture. Trained in 1980, she developed her career between Japan and the United States, where she built an internationally recognized clinical and teaching practice. A disciple of masters such as Manaka Sensei and Nagano Sensei, Kiiko Matsumoto distinguished herself with a deeply clinical approach, based on direct observation of the body, reading of Chinese classics, and a constant exploration of the mechanisms linking physical symptoms, emotions, and body memory. The author of several reference works and a regular participant in training programs around the world, she was in Lisbon in September to lead an intensive workshop, during which she shared recent research and clinical protocols with professionals from various health fields. The following interview stems from that meeting and reflects the vibrant thinking of a person who continues to learn, question, and listen to the human body as a territory of perpetual revelation.

HARA: Can you tell us about your journey into Japanese acupuncture?

Kiiko Matsumoto: I graduated in 1980. Like many others, I was looking for a style, a teacher. I went to the United States, where I realized that the mentality of students, once they graduate, is to think they already know everything, which is incorrect. As soon as I arrived there, I immediately began practicing, but illegally. Shortly after, I obtained my license and green card. I returned to Japan and looked for a publisher, working for a magazine as an editor of articles on acupuncture. Then the magazine’s editor asked me who I wanted to study with, and I chose [Yoshio] Manaka Sensei. The editor introduced us, and I studied with him from 1983 to 1985. At the time, Manaka Sensei must have been around 70, and I was 27. With him, I learned to understand the body. He was a doctor and had to go to war. He had nothing to treat it with, no medicine, no antibiotics, nothing! So how could he cure it? That’s why he started using metals, ionic wires… using his own body’s electricity. What he discovered was astonishing! He began using copper and zinc (by the way: in ancient China, during the Han Dynasty, gold and silver needles already existed. This was over 2,000 years ago). Manaka already possessed this knowledge, but he didn’t know how to use it in practice. And he began to investigate and heal.

Manaka studied the Chinese classics and tried to apply that knowledge in times of war, right?

I don’t know if he studied the classics. He has a background in allopathic medicine, where you study chemistry, physics, etc. I don’t. I knew right away that I wanted to become an acupuncturist and study the classics.

After studying with Yoshio Manaka, did you want to become a student of Kiyoshi Nagano Sensei?

Yes, around the same time. Manaka Sensei was getting older, but he had many ideas and was very interesting and fun to be with. Then I asked to become a student of Nagano Sensei, who was a physical therapist. I like having teachers who know allopathic medicine and the Chinese classics. But you know what they say in Japan? “If you follow a doctor who practices acupuncture, you won’t be the best.” Why? Because doctors’ logic is mainly to prescribe medications—painkillers, stomach medications, cortisone… Do you understand me? There are other tools, a different reasoning. In my clinic, I have a different approach. I need to feel that the patient leaves satisfied with my visit. That I helped them recover from a shoulder injury, for example… That’s why I’ve always thought my foundation should be the Classics. And I started reading Nanking, Lingshu… the classic books…

You started reading them and applying them in your practice, right? Like Master Nagano, right?

Yes, yes, I always say I learned a lot from Master Nagano.

Masters Manaka and Nagano are very pragmatic; they wanted to integrate the Classics into their practice and show immediate results. And Kiiko wanted to do that too, right?

They don’t necessarily have to be immediate results.

Yes, I’m referring to changes in the body…

I believe that if a person does a good job, whatever style they practice, changes occur. Even in Traditional Chinese Medicine, if the diagnosis is correct, the acupuncture points are correct, and the tonification and sedation techniques are applied correctly, the results are visible. It doesn’t have to be just what I do.

You often say Nagano was a genius. Why?

Because, for example, the diagnosis of the Fire points comes from him… There’s pain, for example, and he places the Metal and Water points and immediately begins to change the sensation. The Detoxification point, Kidney 9, triggers immediate changes. Treatment of edema: R3, R7, R11, another example. I’ve had excellent results with what I’ve learned from him. And I began to wonder: why did Master Nagano discover so many protocols?

Do you think he learned from the Classics or from another source?

He studied the Classics extensively, but he doesn’t justify all his discoveries based solely on them.

I’d like to return to a topic discussed at the Lisbon seminar. Can you tell us about Zong Qi Leaking Syndrome?

Chapter 18 of the Suwen states that Zong Qi is related to the Heart. Therefore, if it leaks, it means it’s empty, deficient. I began studying patients with heart problems and discovered that they sometimes had pain in the area below the heart, at the level of the sixth or seventh rib, and that this was related to family bereavements. I work with TA7 and ID11.

In the seminar, you also mentioned the limbic system…

Yes. In physiology, we learn that there are different types of memory: memory for studying or memorizing information is linked to the prefrontal cortex. But if a disaster strikes, like a tsunami, or another traumatic event like an accident, that memory doesn’t remain in the prefrontal cortex. It resides in the limbic area, so that the next time a similar situation arises, the person reacts quickly. The goal is to avoid further trauma. The body learns and will have a better response next time.

And how do you translate all this into practical terms?

This is exactly what I was studying. Have you ever heard of erasing memories? Taking drugs to erase memories, or brain fog?

In this regard, you mentioned the six basic needs or primary instincts.

Yes. They are hunger, thirst, nausea, urination, defecation, and sexual activity. They are related to the area of the E9 point (hyoid bone). For example, obesity: sometimes people eat and still feel hungry. Normally, a person would stop eating when they’re full. But in this case, people never seem to be full… Or even diabetes… Master Nagano taught me the sugar points for these cases. I use them, but they’re not enough… But the opposite also happens: a person doesn’t eat and isn’t hungry. So, in cases of insatiability, dieting is useless. And if a person goes on a diet and fails, they gain even more weight. So I began studying the hypothalamus and the limbic system. Using the same example of lack of satiety, I began to think: either the limbic system isn’t working properly, or the message reaching the organ is incorrect. So, I asked myself: how can I calm the limbic system? Maybe this way I can control unfulfilled primal desires. I then realized that the carotid body is a small chemoreceptor organ. Previously, in these cases, I used the C3 and E9 vertebrae. And some people would say to me: “Kiiko, since you inserted the needle at C3 and E9, my neck feels better, but not my hunger…” Then I began to understand that perhaps changing the angle of the needle from E9 to C3 could influence this primal desire to eat constantly. If the angle is correct, this alteration occurs in the communication between the limbic system and the organ in question. The brain is “Heaven,” the organs are “Earth.” In the middle is “Man.” If we improve the communication between Heaven and Earth, Man feels better. That is, information from the organ flows correctly to the brain and vice versa. For example: I’m hungry and I’m going to eat; If communication (between the organ and the brain) is good, I feel full and stop thinking about food. I can apply the points to calm the person (Bx2, Yuyao, VC17), but this won’t change the desires. I haven’t yet applied this method to the sixth desire, sexual desire, but I use it for hunger (excessive or absent), thirst, nausea (especially due to chemotherapy), or urination. Although in the latter case, the urinary tract infection has nothing to do with the desire.You have to know the difference. And also for constipation (without the urge to go to the bathroom). I think whoever discovered this relationship between the carotid body and the six primary desires was a genius! I studied it in 1980. And, at the time, there was an article on the topic. Later, when I resumed my physiology studies, I discovered that there was no longer any mention of this discovery in books.

In Japanese or American books?

Since we lost the war, all the books are of American origin. So, this is non-Japanese knowledge. But I even looked in English-Japanese medical dictionaries and found nothing! I’m very grateful to this person because the results I’m getting with this technique are fantastic! If I ever find out who this doctor is, I’d like to make him famous. The same thing happens with the dorsolateral area of the prefrontal cortex…

Yes, that was my next question. Could you elaborate on this?

This happens when a person experiences trauma. Trauma is so profound that the limbic system takes on such a size that it seems to take up all the space. For example, World War II: there are people whose trauma was so profound that they spend their time clinging to those memories… But the needles I insert in that area are inserted when there is pain or the memory of pain. In the case of this type of trauma, the brain can actually shrink. But I’m still researching the issue. Maybe I’ll find other points.

I wanted to know what motivates you to continue your work? Is it perhaps the desire to heal people and explore the intersections between the Chinese Classics and Modern Medicine?

What motivates me is the desire to learn more. No one has ever explained to me what the limbic system is. So, I thought if there was something written, I could look for an explanation in the Chinese Classics. Of course not. I’m not saying everyone should continue studying, as in my case with the doctor who understood the connection between the carotid body and primal instincts…

Our Association has many acupuncture students, and I’d like to know if John [Jaarsveld, present at the interview] and Kiiko recommend following a specific path to become better practitioners.

Kiiko Matsumoto: John, how did you study Lingshu? John Jaarsveld: I started by reading the translations, and there are people who explain them. In Australia, there are some, and in the United States, others like Lorraine Wilcox, Eduard Neil, David White, Elisabeth Rochat la Vallée, and Hama Alving, who teaches Chinese medical terminology. I signed up for one of her classes. She teaches the characters and their origins…

And did this help you better understand Kiiko Sensei’s teachings? John Jaarsveld: Yes, it helped me.

Kiiko Matsumoto: I study the Classics because that’s where the original knowledge lies. Today, there are thousands of books, but how do we know which ones to choose? I like the pre-scientific era. From the Classics, we can begin to understand things better and make connections.

Kiiko studied Lingshu, Suwen… but Japanese acupuncture is mostly based on Nanjing, right?

That’s what Toyohari enthusiasts believe. Not just Toyohari, but also Meridian Therapy. I only understand 35% of it.

Do you have any advice for the new generation of acupuncturists?

We need to want to learn more. Like me, I want to learn more about this scientist who discovered the connection with the limbic system. When I started studying in Japan, he had already discovered it.

And what, in your opinion, is your contribution to Japanese acupuncture and its future?

I don’t know any other Japanese practitioners. I teach what I learned from Master Nagano. I don’t know anything about the others.

But, Kiiko makes connections between classical and modern medicine that haven’t been fully explored by others, right?

What do you mean? I teach everything I know…

But do you think other practitioners should also study and learn the classics?

And as for you, John, you’ve studied the Chinese language and the classics, but you’ve also tried to help more people. People turn to you for help, but you’ve also tried to volunteer to extend your help. Do you think this could be a good approach, advising new practitioners to pursue social work and help those who don’t have the financial means to seek other types of help?

John Jaarsveld: Yes, I think it’s important. The world is evolving, and people are seeking other types of help in the healthcare field, and we need to adapt to that. Once a week, I meet with people with limited resources and work to raise funds. I do it because I’m interested in helping them. I’ve studied extensively with Kiiko Sensei, but the most important thing isn’t whether Kiiko Sensei says yes or no. The most important thing is that at the end of the day, I’ve helped and achieved good results.

And that’s why he keeps wanting to learn…

John Jaarsveld: Yes, I try. Sometimes I read things related to what Kiiko Sensei says, other times things from others. For example, I love moxibustion and try to learn more. I recently read chapter 51 of the Lingshu and tried to understand and apply what’s written there. Then I’ll try to see if it works or not.

Kiiko Matsumoto: The problem is that translations aren’t always faithful to the original.

John Jaarsveld: Yes, translations fail in many details, but I try… I’m not the best acupuncturist in the world, but I try my best.

Kiiko Matsumoto: I want to learn more about the limbic system before I die. But I do it for myself. Because I want to. I don’t do it for anyone else. But then I share it. I share it with everyone. I don’t hide anything. The important thing is that people want to learn more about the human body and the classics.

APAJap – Associaçao Portuguesa de Acupuntura Japonesa e Shiatsu

HARA – Journal of Acupuntura and Shiatsu – Spring 2026

TECHNICAL DATA:

Edition: N. 05 – March 2026 Publication: APAJap – Associaçao Portuguesa de Acupuntura Japonesa e Shiatsu

Direction: Ana Sofia Pacheco

Editorial coordination: Francisco Galope

Graphic design and coordination: Ana Fontinha Gameiro

Editorial project: Elsa Jorge

Editorial advice: Fernanda Sousa Tavares, Luis Gameiro

Review: Luis Gameiro

This issue was written by: Catarina Caetano, Ivan Bel, Jose Faro and Natalia M. Rodrigues (guests), Ana Sofia Pacheco,

Carlos Chan Cordeiro, Francisco Galope and Fernanda Sousa Tavares

Frequency: Quarterly

Format: Digital

Contact: info.apajap@gmail.com

Website: https://www.acupunturajaponesa.org/

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